Andrew / August 22, 2006 1:02 PM

We're a little late picking up on this, but since she still has refuge in the church and the Feds haven't arrested her yet, I guess now is as good a time as any.

This is sure to become a heated discussion, but please try to be civil to those with differing viewpoints.

lara / August 22, 2006 1:15 PM

prove positive that we all have poetic inclinations within--her tactic is brilliant. what a better way to point out the hypocrises of those fundamentalist bible-thumper patriots.

hmm / August 22, 2006 1:38 PM

i wonder if i snuck across the border to canada, or stowed away to france, if i could hole up in a church there and demand to be made a citizen. do you think they'd do it? because i'd kind of like to be a french national, or a canadian...

Marilyn / August 22, 2006 1:44 PM

Mary Mitchell had some pretty harsh words for Arellano for daring to compare herself, however loosely, to Rosa Parks. Mitchell's argument is that Arellano is interested only in her own situation, not those of all illegal immigrants, and that she knows nothing about Ms. Parks.

I find this extreme defensiveness by Mitchell to be a bit suspect, as though she has to guard "their" symbol of civil rights from others. It's the kind of self-segregation of the oppressed that I've seen again and again.

While I understand that Parks and Arellano are different in many ways, nonetheless, I admire Arellano for her determination to drive a stake in the ground here to secure a chance for a better life for herself and her child. I can't condemn her illegal act when I see a president breaking not only the law, but also trying to destroy the Constitution. People like Arellano are needed to stand up for what this country should be about--opportunity for anyone who cares to work for it.

JS / August 22, 2006 2:24 PM

I am almost always the typcial 'bleeding heart' kind of person, but in this case, I'm having a hard time understanding how this woman deserves special treatment over other illegal immigrants. I'm sure there are lots of illegal aliens out there are basically good people, that perhaps have a family, that have been deported.

Also - she keeps saying that she won't leave because she will not leave her son. But, in a Tribune article last week, she was quoted as saying something like, "If I have to go to jail for 10 years, then so be it," which is totally contradictory.

Emerson Dameron / August 22, 2006 2:27 PM

I don't have an interesting opinion on the Arellano case. But if you really want to live in Canada without government consent, show up and make friends. While I was there, a few people encouraged me to stay and offered advice on dodging immigration law. What a country!

Marilyn / August 22, 2006 2:35 PM

Does she deserve special treatment. Probably not. But somebody was going to draw a line in the sand. It just happened to be her.

Mikey / August 22, 2006 2:50 PM

Good for her. This country was founded by "illegal" immigrants at the expense of the native peoples. Notwithstanding, we as Americans have never had a problem with hypocrisy...

JS / August 22, 2006 2:52 PM

I think she's allowing people to rally behind her as the one who is drawing the line in the sand. But is she really doing that? This is a quote from her reported in the Sun Times on August 16th: "Well stay here as long as necessary, until Sen. Barach Obama and Sen. Dick Durbin introduce my private bill and approve my extension."

Private bill? If she was stepping forward on behalf of so many others, what are they supposed to do with that?

amb / August 22, 2006 2:55 PM

Send her ass home. No worries, we'll let her take her son with her. There, I said it.

Marilyn / August 22, 2006 3:08 PM

Both senators have pulled the plug on her support. I guess will see how the immigrant community handles her apprehension by the authorities. She might be the reluctant symbol of the struggle. Whether she goes back or not, this issue is going to have to be faced eventually. The media seems to find it rich fodder, so don't look for it to go away.

Sal Pimiento / August 22, 2006 3:16 PM

She in church. I want marry her. She become citizen. We have son. We move Puerto Rico. We all happy. No more yelling.

s / August 22, 2006 3:18 PM

Yeah, I think the best thing everyone involved can do is nothing - exactly what the senators are doing. Let her stay there for as long as that church can afford to put her up... and let all the other immigrants flock to all the other churches until they can't hold any more. Than this situation will just sort itself out. The churches will get sick of it and we can go back to following the law.

The worst thing they could do is rush in there and forcibly arrest her

Marilyn / August 22, 2006 3:27 PM

When do you think the church will get tired of sheltering Dubya?

p / August 22, 2006 3:41 PM

as pops would often say- "you could've already finished the job in the time it's taking you to complain about it." She could've left and snuck back already with all this fussin'.

fluffy / August 22, 2006 4:09 PM

Once Dubya is done ruining this country (economically, ecologically, politically, diplomatically and otherwise) and creating enemies out of many countries, Americans will be the ones wanting to escape the US out of fear of being nuked. Then, the tables will turn and Americans will be seeking asylum in other countries. I wonder if they would be referred to as fugutives? Will all Americans be viewed as possible terrorist because they're foreign to that country? How fast would it take them to get full-time jobs at the lowest wage? How fast would it take them to learn the language? to provide for their children?

Mexico has a corrupt government, and almost no middle class. It has a small percentage of very rich people, and a high percentage of poor. If you were born and raised in that environment, wouldn't you want something better for your family? Or would you want to stay there?

I'm just wondering.

Bill V / August 22, 2006 4:25 PM

This country was not founded by illegal imigrants, as said above. When the settlers came here, this was not a country. We all know the story about how the US became a country and grew into 50 states. There have been many ways to become a citizen over the years and the plain and simple fact is that we can only allow so many new citizens each and every year and sometimes have to cap even that. Times have changed since your grandparents came over on the boat. We need to stick with our rules and send her packing!

Marilyn / August 22, 2006 4:40 PM

Why can we only allow so many new citizens? I don't understand that. If people are here illegally, but are still using our resources--and apparently we're not running out of anything--then what's wrong with letting them stay here and contributing as citizens?

roderick / August 22, 2006 4:59 PM

Argh, my fiancee and I just had a heated discussion about this yesterday...

I read an article not too long ago about illegal immigrants using fake, or worse, stolen social security numbers to work in the U.S. I'm not too sure that anyone would like to have their credit unknowingly ruined by an illegal immigrant. I'm all for human rights, but there has to be some order to the chaos, right?

I'm first generation asian-american, but my parents had to wait in line like everyone else. My grandmother still can't get a visa to visit here, after waiting over a decade. Should we stuff her in a church and see what happens?

Sorry...ranting...

Lawrence / August 22, 2006 5:02 PM

I'll tell you what she should do, man . . . two chicks at one time, man.

carrie / August 22, 2006 5:17 PM

I'm not too sure that anyone would like to have their credit unknowingly ruined by an illegal immigrant

I'm not too sure anyone would like having their credit ruined by a us citizen either.

marge / August 22, 2006 5:21 PM

Bill V. This country was not founded by illegal imigrants, as said above. When the settlers came here, this was not a country.
This was not a country? So the white folks killed the native people virtually wiping out entire tribes, broke treaty after treaty, and then said, hey it's a country now - and we own it!

Jeff / August 22, 2006 5:48 PM

I have worked at a private school and served as their international admissions advisor. There are different types of visas required to be here legally and it can take thousands of dollars to get these. However, it can be done. Why should the law-abiding immigrants go through the process and not others? Oh, she had a kid in the US...fine...let the kid stay with legal families or DCFS...have the mom sent home and earn it legally.

I see her as a criminal. Treat her as one.

Mikey / August 22, 2006 6:49 PM

I'll tell you what she should do, man . . . two chicks at one time, man.

OK...I'm sorry...but that time I laughed...

Jay / August 22, 2006 7:22 PM

It's awful what happened to the Native Americans, it makes me sick to my stomach to think about it, and shame on those European settlers. However, that was a different time, and no one alive today should be held accountable for it. I don't understand why people think that's a good point to argue. Should we ban all Germans because of WWII?

If the point is that this country was founded on ideals that a human, no matter his or her origin, should be able to pursue happiness here, I think we all agree that immigrants are great! Just follow our laws please...

mike-ts / August 22, 2006 9:36 PM

Immigrants are all butt busters when it comes to work, but there are different types of immigrants. If she's type 1, stay, if she's type 2, deport.

Type 1) Some, like my grandfathers did, come over and live packed into housing until they save enough to send for the rest of the family, then they get them over, and live JUST LIKE THE LOCALS in that they work for the same wage, at the same job, and feed their families at the same price from the same grocer. They can't work at a cut rate because, heck, they're paying the same for apples at Jewel or gas from BP as they citizen next door. Identical cost of living for their wages.

Type 2) Some come over alone, then wire most of the paycheck home, and return once their dollar pile is built, or are stuck exiled here because they have so many back home depending on their income. Since the dollar can stretch way farther for their families, they can afford (can't think of a better word for it) to work for less than people here whose families are here paying U.S. rent and utilities. And their governments can maintain a bulljive govermnent back home because these people are a safety valve, keeping their ecomony alive by draining dollars.

I can't have a problem with people who want to better themselves, whether here legally or illegally. People say Americans won't do those jobs, but we won't do them at the sub par pay or poor working conditions that illegals get stuck in.

Stop the money flow out, make the immigrants bring every Tom, Dick, and Harry they're supporting with their income and have them pay equal rent, etc. as citizens do. That way employers won't be so eager to hire someone from, say, Molaria because Molarian workers' families of six only need $200/week to live on back home.

Spook / August 22, 2006 10:16 PM

Hey Marilyn, actually google first before you say something like "Why can we only allow so many new citizens? I don't understand that."

We are running out of "things" Maybe you should pose that question to those citizens who can no longer use 78 hospitals in impoverished African-America communites in California closed down during the last six years because of over use from ilegal immigrants from Mexico. And what about the Haitains, Chinese, the Nigerians, Indains, Egyptions, etc, etc who are waiting patiently to legally come here but can't because illigals from one country are streaming over in mass?
These same illegals are vastly taxing our education, medical, social services, prisons and police. far more than they are paying in taxes.

And Fluffy you are right
Mexico has a corrupt government, But people who are born there should do what Rosa Parks, Martin King, Malcom X, John Brown, Neslson Mandela, Susan B. Anthony,
Fidel Castro, Patrice Lumumba,Ghandi, Che, etc, etc, etc, did. Start a progressive revolution for justice in their country
not break the laws of another county and displace poor people there

e U.S Dep of Ed. reports over 1.5 million school-aged illegal immigrants residing in the United States and over 2 Million U.S.-born siblings that can be divided among the states using government estimates of the illegal alien population. Using each state's per-pupil expenditure, cost estimates for educating illegal immigrants at over $1.092 billion in 2002. These numbers of have increased. North Carolina now estimates $210 million a year, New York, $3.1 billion, and California 7.7 billion. Remember bilingual education cost more and I wont get into the additional drain that these resources take away from classes where English is the primary language.

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.

·Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).

·With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.

·On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.

·Many of the costs associated with illegals are due to their American-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth. Thus, greater efforts at barring illegals from federal programs will not reduce costs because their citizen children can continue to access th

Sylvia / August 23, 2006 12:08 AM

the majority of you guys commenting on this topic are probably white or non hispanic or don't even know someone personally that is currently undocumented.. you can understand what an undocument person life is like if you are too busy passing judgement....

empathy is needed not sympathy....

Sylvia / August 23, 2006 12:12 AM

My last sentence meant to say "you CAN'T understand what an undocumented person life is like when you are too busy passing judgement".....

via la raza!!!!!!

Spook / August 23, 2006 1:17 AM

Hey Sylvia

Nice way to shut down thoughtful l debate, by instead of providing facts about what over 11 million- and rising -Mexican illegal Immigrants means economically to this country, by saying "you can't understand". And " Via La Raza" I think that translates to "long live "The Race" which has always sounded Racist to me
Maybe you should reconsider not calling yourselves "The Race"
when so many members of "The Race" are stealing away into this country instead of fighting to make the Country of The Race better.
And I sure wish
LaRaza News Paper- The News Paper of "The Race- was more considerate to the American environment and local nieghborhoods, buy
not littering my hood Logan Square with ubiquitous copies of LaRaza!
I hear Ald Manny Flores( A Mexican American himself) is passing some sort of
city ordinance to prohibit La Raza's " entitlement" to rain issues of La Raza in front of every home, apartment and Condo that very few read. I have begged them not to blanket my place with them but to know avail, but again they are The Race, so they can do as they please

Appleby / August 23, 2006 7:06 AM

My opinion:
1) the U.S. should make the process for obtaining a work visa simpler and faster
2) the U.S. should permit more legal immigration
3) at the same time, the U.S. should work to stop illegal immigration into the country

Do I have any ideas about how to do #3 well? No. But if the first two were accomplished, I think #3 would be easier.

I am sympathetic to illegal immigrants (I've dealt with immigration authorities myself). But illegal immigration endangers the immigrants' lives when they are in transit and it leaves them vulnerable to every kind of exploitation and injury once they arrive.

We need a better way to get people into the system (visa/ work permit, whatever), and do it faster and with less expense. I just have no idea how.

Fred Hollita / August 23, 2006 7:23 AM

Simple:
We give them all tatoos on the inside of their arms so we can track them - no tattoo, no papers, you go home.
Tattoo, you go to work farm and get put to use.
Papers? you can do as you please.
Put all of these tattoo guys to good use.

Marilyn / August 23, 2006 8:22 AM

Spook - "78 hospitals in impoverished African-America communites in California closed down during the last six years because of over use from ilegal immigrants from Mexico."

Can you verify that this is the cause? I worked in healthcare finance and am pretty sure that it's more complicated than this. But even if it's not, California used to be part of Mexico until the U.S. stole it, so maybe they're just getting a bit of their own back, hum?

Thad / August 23, 2006 8:46 AM

Marilyn: We didn't steal California. We won it through war, the conquering act. Get with the program.

Marilyn / August 23, 2006 8:52 AM

Oops, my bad!

Allan / August 23, 2006 9:47 AM

Don't care. Not at all. There are a million sad stories that never get heard just because this one is being pumped by the bullshit media machine I should care. If you get caught breaking the law you are subject to the law you have broken. The son issue is bunk anyway how many black women have been put in prison and had there kids taken away by DCFS with complete disregard for what is best for the kids. Why is this different?

Just a passer by / August 23, 2006 9:55 AM

Spook says: Mexico has a corrupt government, But people who are born there should do what Rosa Parks, Martin King, Malcom X...did. Start a progressive revolution for justice in their country not break the laws of another county and displace poor people there.

Not a single person on this site who has praised this woman as some kind of "freedom fighter" has made any attempt to refute this position. Why? Near as I can see because the illegal immigrant rights "movement" does little more than just demand empathy (or posit tangential, off topic jeremiads against the Republican party) as evidenced by the vast majority of “pro-immigrant” comments on this thread.

Marilyn / August 23, 2006 10:02 AM

Passerby - Nobody has answered my questions either. Why do we have to limit immigration so severely? (Spook is unconvincing.) Why aren't our lawbreaking federal executives being brought to justice? Once we eliminate the double standard, I'll have a little more empathy for the law-and-order folks on this site. Civil disobedience in a global economy crosses borders. We're complicit in Mexico's poor economy and corruption.

Jay / August 23, 2006 10:36 AM

I didn't know why we had to put a cap on immigration, however Spook's stats seemed pretty convinging to me....Marilyn, what doesn't convince you? Do you not believe them?

Also, since when do two wrongs make a right? Ok, so our gov't is corrupt, Mexico's gov't is corrupt, it's partly our fault, and I'm sure we'd all wish it would stop. Does that truly mean that we should say, "Fuck it" and let choas take over?

It's pretty well known that there is corruption in our prison systems. Do you think we should just close down our prisons and let everyone out?

Josh / August 23, 2006 11:14 AM

What I have to say has nothing to do with Elvira Arellano, but rather, the manner in which some people have chosen to defend her here.

There is nothing more pretentious and guilt-ridden than hearing and seeing white people repeatedly illustrate the wrongdoings of other white people. It's being done here today under the umbrella of explaining how this country initially evolved. Why white people do this is to attempt to assuage their own guilt over their privileges, while at the same time hoping they will seem progressive and open-minded to minorities.

Memo to white people: stop trying so hard to seem multi-cultural. Minorities don't care how much you love them or accept them, and they find your incessant self-consciousness nauseating. At the end of the day, you are just reminding them -- once again -- that they're a minority.

fluffy / August 23, 2006 11:27 AM

The Mexican government is corrupt in so many ways, Americans cannot even imagine. It is sickening. There are mafias and people 'disappear' if they revolt. This has happened, and I've had friendswhose uncles or grandfathers were kidnapped for ransom. I also know this because that's where I'm from . I'm not pulling statistics from the internet or stories out of my ass. I've lived there. Americans can say and do anything they want and they always assume that other countries have the same protection of Freedom of Speech. They don't.

Malcolm X, Rosa Parks, MLK - I love them, but they were all born in the U.S. These are 3 out of billions of people, and you want this Arellano woman to create a frickin movement? She's just a poor scared immigrant with probably a 6th grade education. And you want her to act like those 3 strong-willed, driven, American heroes whose names appear in all the history books? Is that really what YOU would do if you were her?

The only reason I am an American citizen is because my Mom was born on American-owned territory. My father is not American, but lived here for 20+ years. He has since moved back to Mexico because he couldn't stand the racism and hypocrisy here.

I love the U.S. for its progressiveness and its women's movement- because you can 'write a letter to the editor' and it will be printed- because it's supposed to be the melting pot of the world.

I don't have the answers, but there has got to be a more progressive and diplomatic way of handling this problem.

fluffy / August 23, 2006 11:34 AM

And Josh- unless you're a minority, don't speak on behalf of them.

And by 'white people' what do you mean? Because if you saw me on the street, you may think I'm 'white people' - but I that's not what I call myself.

And when you say 'minorities', are you also including African Americans?

And your comment: " Memo to white people: stop trying so hard to seem multi-cultural" has got to be the funniest thing I've ever read here.

just a passerby / August 23, 2006 11:43 AM

Marilyn,

I'm with Jay on this. Spook did provide an answer to your question, you just don't like it. Is he right? I don't know. But it's certainly more plausible and thoughtful than the pro-illegal stances put forward here.

Also, you say: "Once we eliminate the double standard, I'll have a little more empathy for the law-and-order folks on this site. " This is a strange claim to make because it says that you tacitly admit that what is happening is wrong you just don't care because you assume the elite do it as well. Does anyone really hold this as a responsible or reasonable position to hold on any issue? You’re not even saying two wrongs make a right. You’re just saying: “If white Republican men in ties can be wrong, greedy, evil, then so can I.” Not only is this not an argument, it’s not even adult.

In addition, you make it look as though you believe empathy is somehow applicable to this issue. But it's not because making empathy your reason for holding a position (pro OR con) requires that you are less concerned and sympathetic to either legal immigrants and our nation’s poor or illegal immigrants. In other words, compassion and empathy can’t be your guide in this issue because you ARE going to be against some marginalized group no matter what position you take. Second of all, to hold a position based on “guilt” or “compassion” alone just doesn’t work when the issue encompasses so much more (i.e. economics, identity, history, politics, etc..) than personal preference. Don’t limit your arguments and position with silly bleeding heart tripe make it part of comprehensive defense that affects the mind and the heart.

Marilyn / August 23, 2006 11:44 AM

I hardly think we're on the brink of chaos. Our society has never been under such tight control in our history. Learn a little more about civil disobediance before you start thinking that immigrant protests are the same as throwing open prison doors.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but I'll take certain "wrongs" that have been defined as such by people I don't respect--like INS and congressmen and women who want to build a wall along the Rio Grande.

And I'm not white. I'm human. I have empathy.

Spooksanidiot / August 23, 2006 12:03 PM

Spook, would you care to provide any evidence to your claim of 11 mil. mexican illegals?

Marilyn Ferdinand / August 23, 2006 12:13 PM

When Spook provides a credible citation for his "evidence," I'll take it into consideration.

Civil disobediance may involve breaking a law, but it is a legitimate way to try to change social conditions that are untenable and that the ruling power will not change by other means.

Borders are just works of the imagination supported by force. Politicians violate them all the time by jerrymandering districts to disenfranchise citizens.

You say, "In other words, compassion and empathy can’t be your guide in this issue because you ARE going to be against some marginalized group no matter what position you take. " I don't understand your reasoning here. I'm not against legal immigrants or people who apply for citizenship. I am against the people who make it so hard for people to contribute legitimately to this country or who create conditions so bad that others are forced to go elsewhere. Compassion and empathy are exactly what are needed to get this country back together. The coalition of the angry and self-centered has had its way too long.

Appleby / August 23, 2006 12:14 PM

Illegal immigrants cost taxpayers money -- but they also generate money. One estimate is that all immigrants (legal and illegal) generate about .2% GDP growth every year -- that's 22 billion dollars every year. Other estimates suggest that it is immigrants, legal and illegal, who are driving U.S. economic growth.

Now, there's lots to disagree about here: is this a good thing in the long run? how does this balance against the costs? do we even want our economy to depend on constant growth?

But immigrants are worth a lot to American businesses, and that's one reason why there hasn't been a policy of stringent enforcement of existing immigration policy (for instance, there is already a guest-worker system in place, but many businesses don't bother with it). If immigrants depended on the empathy of their neighbors, we wouldn't have many.

anon / August 23, 2006 12:17 PM

I don't see why Elena should get any special attention or help with her plight. There are a lot of other legal and illegal immigrants more deserving of our sympathy and assistance. Clearly, America does not have the resources to let in every single person who wants to immigrate - hell, our track record for feeding, sheltering, educating, employing and providing healthcare for the people who ARE here proves that. However, there's always room for compassion... immigration asssitance for people who already have family here, who have medical conditions that aren't treatable in their native land, who are fleeing war or oppression - those should be our priorities.

D / August 23, 2006 12:20 PM

This woman is obviously breaking the law. But current US immigration law isn't working. Billionaires in Congress don't want to protect your precious neighborhoods from cheap undocumented labor - they want to keep it coming. If we're going to make any progress in handling immigration, we need to get past "obey the law." And OF COURSE that doesn't mean letting anyone come here who wants to. Does ANYONE here ever question their own politics?

Dunl / August 23, 2006 12:34 PM

Make it easy enough for foreigners to stay in the US legally that this sort of thing isn't an issue in the future.

Bill V / August 23, 2006 1:07 PM

Yes Marge, it was something like that. And to the rest, there have to be some rules on citizenship, and those rules have to be enforced. Otherwise you just have Anarchy, and even the punks know we don't really want that. So hopefully the folks we voted for sort this out once and for all. Half of us will agree with their ways and means, half of us won't.

Marilyn / August 23, 2006 1:09 PM

Define anarchy.

Mikey / August 23, 2006 1:31 PM

Josh -

You sound like a Republican trying to sound like a minority...

racerx / August 23, 2006 1:56 PM

If the principles of our founding fathers, our Declaration and our Constitution have any truth, they must be true for everyone.

If the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are endowed to us by our creator, then it shouldn't matter where one is born or what country they are in--they must be true for everyone, everywhere.

And by the same token, the rights guaranteed by our constitution must apply to everyone, regardless of whether or not they happen to have been born in the right zip code or have (bought / bribed) the right visa. Else, we could easily slip back to the days of seeing some people as "equal" and others as "chattal".

Citizenship is irrelevant.

Dan / August 23, 2006 2:55 PM

I suppose we're supposed to believe that it was just random chance that a person who fights for the rights of undocumented workers was just randomly selected for deportation.

What a crock.

Spook / August 23, 2006 3:04 PM

Marilyn:
Again my sources;
the ed. numbers are from the U. S Dep of Ed, 2005. The Center for Immigration Studies-
What illegal immigrants pay into federal/state coffers as oppose to what they take in i.e. the net fiscal deficit. There # are based on the 2002 Census.
Here's a article from the N Y Times about Northridge Hospital Medical Center closing December 31.
And the hospitals closing along our boarder are from this springs issue of the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons

As a covert political blogger, I insist on doing all I can to get facts. as opposed to Fluffy who is anti fact because they don't serve her self serving polimic
And you�re cheeky statement about stealing Mexico, is interesting as it is valid. But lets give it ALL back to the native Americans as its who the Spanish stole it from, which is why those blond women are so popular in Mexican Day Time T.V. It�s easy for you to say trite things while sitting back comfortable in a bastion of elite liberalism. But go get cheeky to poor black and whites who don�t have a hospital now. I don�t think they would share you�re sardonic wit. And what could be simpler than lots of immigrants pouring into a few charity hospitals that cannot afford to take care of them and the poor American Citizens they were set up for? This is the problem with liberals on this issue. They don�t have to go to these hospitals Thier children don�t have to attend already over crowded public schools with illegals that demand Bilingual ed. programs that, don�t work- in poor schools already over burdened with �problem english speaking students�- and end up being an educational drain, yes I have stats on this too. And because illegals have no impact on you�re wages. It�s all about for you �Open the Boarders Amigos�. Where is you�re empathy to the poor working people in American? Why don�t we take car of our poor first? And hell yes we need to crack down on corporate America at the same time.

And News Flash Fluffy. Rosa Parks had no more than a high school education, Malcolm X was a ward of the state with no high school education and you have no idea( probably because you know nothing about the civil rights movement) what it was like for African-American people during those times I�d like to recommend Taylor Branch�s Book Pillar of Fire to you about the King Years in America, but actually being factual for you is too hard evident in you�re comments about" pulling internet facts out...". To hell with facts right Fluffy I can see why you call you're self Fluffy- no Substance!

Its all about courage, Fluffy, Rosa Parks with out an education had it. John Brown who died for a cause had it. Mean while you�re brothers and sisters are sneaking over hear instead of changing their country for their children, seems to be lacking Courage. Mexican immigration represents lost hope for Mexico. Very conservative estimates peg over 10% of Mexico's population- about 107 million-, now living in the U.S. and over 15% of Mexico's labor force is here. These numbers are on the rise. One in every 8 Mexican workers migrates to the U. S. This pattern is tragically altering Mexico, as entire communities are emptied of working age people. Where is their revolution? You folks should be streaming back over the boarder in protest of the stolen election over there, not protesting here!
I kow the liberal elite
won�t tell you the hard truths, that Mexicans need to topple the racist government of �Vince� Fox who exploits the poor there by creating policies that allow American corporations to get rich in Mexico along with the ruling Mexican elite.

while poor Mexicans break laws to get over hear depriving the rights of foreigners who have applied the legal way and poor people here at the bottom of the social heap.

and for you're information
African-Americans were stolen/ brought over on slave ships, most of them perishing in dark dank bottoms of slave ships or jumping over board driven by madness. Once they were over here, for 400 hundred years were chattel representing a social and political death. Often times families were broken up, mothers from children etc, etc, to sale to different owners.
Rosa Parks like all Black citizens had to vacate her seat for any white person that came along. Imagine the humiliation. Elvira Arellano can fill out forms and wait for citizen ship like the rest other well deserving foreigners who want to be citizens, well now that she stole some citizen's s.s number its problematic. and how is it that she could be here for 11 years ans still not speak the langauge. Where is the love? Does this help her son?

I'm done

s / August 23, 2006 3:10 PM

Oh and Appleby
can I get you to cite you're sources about immigrants driving our economy I thought it was our suicidal borrowing from China

Marilyn / August 23, 2006 3:27 PM

Spook - Went to the Spring 2006 Journal. Didn't see the article.

NYT article says the hospitals closed because of treatment of the uninsured. That could be anyone. You assume they are illegal Mexicans. I also find your assertion that only poor Americans deserve health care (because "our" taxes funded those hospitals, damn it) offensive.

If the drain on the tax system from immigrants is because of low education levels, isn't the money we spend on educating the children of illegals well worth it? They will be productive members of society as a result. Oh yes, but the schools don't work. Should we blame the illegals for that, too? I don't.

Mexico is a true tragedy, no question about it. At least the illegals who work here and send money home are contributing something to their country. That's more than their government seems willing to do.

Appleby / August 23, 2006 3:38 PM

dear s,
The source is Gerorge Borjas's work on immigration. I'm not saying that he's correct. That's a more complicated question. I'm just pointing out that this is one argument that affects many political decisions about immigration.

http://www.econlib.org/LIBRARY/Enc/Immigration.html#biography

the original s / August 23, 2006 3:59 PM

gaw damn... spook is dropping science!

Peter / August 23, 2006 4:05 PM

I propose the next fuel question to be "if there is one regular fuel poster you could vote off the island, who would it be?"

Marilyn and Spook, I suppose, would be the top vote getters because each of them manage to hijack any and every thread and turn it into their personal soap-box pissing contest!!!

Marilyn / August 23, 2006 4:10 PM

I vote Peter off for being inflammatory about an interesting discussion that everyone is free to participate in.

John / August 23, 2006 4:25 PM

She is no Rosa Parks. She is someone who has run out of appeals and is desperate. Even the politicians are backing away. Using a child as a pawn for the whole system is not right at all.
Explain this to me. She was arrested 4 yrs ago for using a fake ss # (what would you do if it was your # she was using). and had previously broken a law by entering our country illegally.

Here's my take on it.

1. she had 4 yrs to make proper arrangements for her son and did nothing but appeal to higher ups. To put her son in the middle of this seems almost like child abuse.

2. She should be tried not only for immigration violations, but also identity theft for using a fake/stolen ss#. I'd be curious how many people out there have suffered through identity theft at the hands of illegal immigrants.

3. It digusts me to to see elected officials going to bat for illegal residents of our country when there are needy legal citizens/residents who deserve their attention.

4. The system is broken. We should own up to our country's mistakes and give current illegal immigrants the opportunity for citizenship. There should be some level of penalties enacted though to show respect for those who have properly waited through the proper channels. Deporting the millions already here is nonsensical but there needs to be more done to fix the problem in the future. It's just

5. People with the sign on the marches that say "we are not criminals". They are dead wrong they are criminals and should be treated as such. If I were a child molester and had that same sign I would be laughed at. I don't understand the difference

6. what the hell is the difference between and undocumented immigrant and illegal immigrant? Is it just a PC thing. I guess in the same vein you could say "child molester" is the same as "age-unrestricted lover"

carrie / August 23, 2006 4:38 PM

the difference is that a child molester is actually hurting someone. an illegal immigrant isn't actually causing pain. comparing a scumbag molester to an illegal immigrant isn't a fair comparison, in my opinion. I understand that they're both breaking the law, but come on.

Mo / August 23, 2006 4:38 PM

I think it's interesting that this thread became a debate regarding whether or not we should allow illegal immigrants to stay in our country. You all have great points, but yawn. Heard it all before! I thought for sure the point of this thread would be, "Should a CHURCH be allowed to shelter a criminal." Because regardless of the churches current policy on sanctuary, that is what's happening because even though the enforcers claim they can and will take her into custody whenever they choose, they haven't yet. Fear of public opinion against church raids? Honest to god (haha) reverence for sanctuary? What if she had taken asylum in a synagogue? This is the point I'd like to hear y'all's opinions on. If they cannot provide sanctuary, does that also mean there should be no spiritual expectation of privacy protection? My personal opinion, break those church doors down. If it was a mass murderer hiding in those pews, I wonder if it would be an issue at all.

mongoose / August 23, 2006 4:39 PM

at best she’s a tangent of and at worst a diversion from the real issue, which most of the posters here are ignoring, just like the politicians that are making hay of the illegal immigrant issue: the employers that hire and often actively recruit illegal immigrants.

illegal immigration wouldn’t be nearly as big a problem if the major incentive for coming to the US were eliminated. the real question is what it would take to get politicians to hold their bankrollers’ feet to the fire.

don’t expect any resolution on the illegal immigration issue. expect people to lose interest after this round of elections is over, and politicians have less incentive to fan the immigration flames.

i wish Blagg were here.

marge / August 23, 2006 4:47 PM

To the folks who complained about my brief spelling out of the treatment of American Indians - I did that in response to Bill V. who wrote, "This country was not founded by illegal imigrants, as said above. When the settlers came here, this was not a country. "
History that is presented that way is dangerous. Saying that this land we are in was not a country before white people arrived read to me that the native people that lived here were not civilized. The "settlers" came in and tamed the wild. Does that not sound problematic?

john / August 23, 2006 5:19 PM

Carrie, you proved my point exactly.

sure there is a difference between a child molester and an illegal immigrant.

My point is that the term "undocumented" was invented to make it seem less of a criminal act. If the same thing were done to make the act of molesting children less "criminal" you'd have people up in arms.

The fact is undocumented=illegal and people are skewing it.

The Zoner / August 23, 2006 5:21 PM

Spook is dropping serious science.--I'm a fan!

Scenario:
Immigrants A & B sneak into country.

Immigrant A has baby. Baby is citizen.

Immigrant A has medical conditions and cannot work.

Immigrant A gets welfare.

Immigrant C (anchor baby) gets mass benefits from multiple sources.

When age 21 Immigrant C can also sponsor immigration of relatives.

And so on...

More here

mr ed / August 23, 2006 6:06 PM

With all the acrominous shouting back and forth, has anyone's mind been changed? Or do we all just keep waiting for everyone else to agree with us?

Spook / August 23, 2006 8:20 PM

Wha sa matter lil peter, intimidated by the big words of an actual debate? It’s what this country use to be about, moron, and yes yall- I’m now pissed- That is before we got over populated by idiots like people like lil peter

Do you realize that that over 15,000 people attended the original Lincoln Douglas Debate in a tiny town of 3,000. Of course these Gaper conversations are in no way on the same level. My point is very public highly spirited conversations and debate use to be what this country was about! Gapers Block seems to be one of the last vestiges lleft in this tradition, ya heard Mr ed?

But people like Peter who are clearly threatened and intimidated by these very healthy exchanges cannot help but resent that they cannot keep up, so they must bring others down. So Peter go repair you’re small ego and intellect by the bright T.V perhaps there is a cubs game on

No back to the matter at hand

Marilyn
I find it damn offensive that you read the NY Times article and continue to skirt the issue just because they didn't come right out and say Illegals are cleary a major problem in our already screwed up system. It is the liberal NY Times, like NPR they are more fence sitters.

and you skirt the issue that Hello, we have 50 million Americans with no heath insurance already, but you turn your back on them as if we have the resources to provide heath care for illegals when we don’t even provide it for too many Americans! Would I like to provide it for all, yes, But Americans should come first.

I have also enclosed the link to the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons has a report (PDF Format) in their spring issue that points out the detriment of illegal aliens to the health and health care system of Americans. http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/000859.html
From the report:
“The influx of illegal aliens has serious hidden medical consequences. We judge reality primarily by what we see. But what we do not see can be more dangerous, more expensive, and more deadly than what is seen.
Illegal alien’s stealthy assaults on medicine now must rouse Americans to alert and alarm. Even President Bush describes illegal aliens only as they are seen: strong physical laborers who work hard in undesirable jobs with low wages, who care for their families, and who pursue the American dream.
What is unseen is their free medical care that has degraded and closed some of America's finest emergency medical facilities, and caused hospital bankruptcies: 84 California hospitals are closing their doors. "Anchor babies" born to illegal aliens instantly qualify as citizens for welfare benefits and have caused enormous rises in Medicaid costs and stipends under Supplemental Security Income and Disability Income.
...
What is seen is the political statistic that 43 million lives are at risk in America because of lack of medical insurance. What is unseen is that medical insurance does not equal medical care. Uninsured people receive medical care in hospital emergency departments (EDs) under the coercive Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act of 1985 (EMTALA), which obligates hospitals to treat the uninsured but does not pay for that care. …….

So why don’t you come down off your myopic perch and come up with some real solutions instead of how it should be. And they need to over through their government by fighting for their country. I guess you are more at ease with them over here begging thann working with them to fight/build a better Mexico.
And interesting point Mo. I am afraid of taking that power away from moral institutions although most of them fall short, but remember many churches harbored runaway slaves as part of the underground rail road. I think the question is, what kind of Minister is Walter “Slim” Coleman

Leelah / August 23, 2006 10:00 PM

I bet Blagg the Axman could get her out of that church.

Marilyn / August 23, 2006 10:49 PM

Spook, I've seen your website, so I know where you're getting your information and what you think of it. Just because you choose to read something into an article that isn't there, doesn't mean you're right. The NYT is not a liberal newspaper by any stretch of the imagination, not with their equivocation about Bush and rabid support of the invasion of Iraq.

Perhaps if Dubya hadn't decided to mortgage our future on paying off his pals with tax cuts they don't need and defense contracts they want, plus starting a few wars he couldn't pay for and still support those tax cuts, we could afford health care for everyone, including the illegal immigrants. But I realize it's better to 1) decrease the surplus population and 2) live the Chicago motto, "where's mine?" We are not our brothers' keeper, only exploiter. If the United States really wanted to end the flood of illegal immigrants, it could do so with some fair trade options for Mexico and a refusal to work with the illegal leaders of the country. But you know what they say about honor among thieves.

I will give our Congress one tiny applause for finally condemning the unchecked murders of over 400 women in the Cuidad/Juarez area of Mexico--13 years after they started!

Johnisanidiottoo / August 24, 2006 8:12 AM

John, your argument only brings your morals into question. Illegality does not equal immorality. Comparing Illegal immigrants to pedophiles an murders is morally bankrupt. Is everything so black and white to you?

Appleby / August 24, 2006 9:18 AM

Someone earlier mentioned the idea of trying this method -- taking refuge in a church -- in France. Probably not a good idea. In 1996, French police twice entered churches where illegal immigrants (sans-papiers) had sought refuge. They broke down the doors of Saint-Bernard in Paris, where over 200 people had been negotiating with the government for months; 22 of those inside ended up with visas. More recently, the bishop of the Belgian Catholic Church has encouraged and aided immigrants in seeking refuge in several churches there. However, Belgian police recently raided a church in Anderlecht and arrested those inside. So, Chicago (and the U.S.) is not alone in deciding how to face this kind of protest.

John / August 24, 2006 9:38 AM

to johnisanidiottoo

I made my point exactly.

I wasn't comparing the 2 groups I was making a point on how words can be used to make something seem less strong.

Please read my response email on 8/23 @ 519pm before you question my morals. I wish more people could see the difference word play is used in the media.

The term illegal immigrant is used my more conservative writers while undocumented is used by more liberal writers to downplay the term. People need to recognize the spin the media puts on things.

fluffy / August 24, 2006 11:23 AM

Spook, my brother, read your words, here (and by the way, even though I'm dumb, my grammar and spelling is much better than yours. It's not "hear' - it's "here"...it's not 'you're'- it's 'your', it's not "through"- it's 'throw' )

. its who the Spanish stole it from, which is why those blond women are so popular in Mexican Day Time T.V.
i can't even comment on how ridiculous this statement is, and how it has nothing to do with the discussion.

And News Flash Fluffy. Rosa Parks had no more than a high school education, Malcolm X was a ward of the state with no high school education and you have no idea( probably because you know nothing about the civil rights movement) what it was like for African-American people during those times
- did I say they were educated? I said they were not immigrants.

Its all about courage, Fluffy,- Is that a fact, Spookie? Because you know everything, tell me why so many people in New Orleans who are still displaced and are not getting the help from their government don't do something about their situation. They should revolt! Yes, they should stand up and over "through" their government! Get results. yeah!Courage! I'm not comparing these folks to illegal immigrants, but if Spook feels that this is a way for people/humans to get shit done.......

This pattern is tragically altering Mexico, as entire communities are emptied of working age people - Tell me what communities they are. I'll ask some friends to go check them out. Really. Tell me what website you got that from.

I never compared this lady to Rosa Parks. Please!
For the record, I don't think it's right to steal ss#'s, or to hide in churches (although there's some historical/cultural aspect to that), or to use kids as anchors----and the US border is nothing like the rest of the United States, so please stop judging Mexico/Mexicans by its border towns/people).

And Spook, it's great that you're passionate about this, but calling people morons and idiots and constantly putting people down because they don't agree with your point of view is childish and makes you look foolish. Is your ego that sensitive? Are you threatened that easily just because someone disagrees with you? Man, you're just too good for us. We don't deserve you. Please, write more, educate us, especially me, because instead of insulting people online (weak), I am writing about actual life experiences, and not quoting websites. Not that there's anything wrong with websites, but it's also good to get out and meet some of the people you 'debate' about.

Marilyn / August 24, 2006 3:49 PM

Spook - I read the journal article by Madeleine Pelner Cosman, went through her reference list, and read her obit. She had an agenda and is a conservative. Her references come up with a number of questionable, right-wing sources that I do not consider authoritative. Her assertion that illegal immigrants sneak into this country harboring all kinds of hidden contagions is her own opinion, not referenced at all. She is an attorney who taught medical students medical law, medical business and medical history at City College of City University of New York. In 1968, she became founding director of the school's Institute for Medieval and Renaissance Studies, which granted undergraduate and graduate degrees. Marrying a physician, as she did, does not make her an expert on either infectious diseases or on immigration. Being a policy analyst with a bias makes you a bad policy analyst.

Give me so unbiased sources, and I'll consider further.