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Fuel

amyc / November 1, 2004 10:17 AM

If Kerry doesn't win, I may have to quit my job, change my name, and join the rebel forces.

Andrew / November 1, 2004 11:07 AM

I'll be grumpy for the next four years if Bush wins. Otherwise, no.

red / November 1, 2004 11:14 AM

For the past couple of years I've been saying that if Bush wins then it is time for me to move to another country.

Benjy / November 1, 2004 11:18 AM

If Bush wins, I may have to pick up and move to Mexico. Screw Canada, it's too cold there!

Carly / November 1, 2004 11:40 AM

If Bush wins, it will be further proof that things really are as screwed up as I think they are.

If Kerry wins, it might mean the end of our wake up call. Will we be lulled into complacency again? Will we be as impassioned as we are now to get Bush out about other issues that won't simply disappear just because we have a new president?

Is it Monday and does my head hurt from this line of thinking? Yes.

jennifer / November 1, 2004 11:51 AM

i know either way it goes, i'll cry, either out of joy or sheer anger.

Thurston / November 1, 2004 11:52 AM

If Bush wins, it will seriously cramp my style. I travel abroad a lot, and there are a lot of presuppositions I deal with about US citizens, some of them reasonable, some of them not. With no hyperbole, I can say that almost everyone in the entire world thinks Bush is an idiot except about 50% of Americans. Reasonable foreigners understand that the situation under which Bush was elelcted was an oddity and are willing not to pass wholesale judgment on us yet. However if we elect Bush again, that will have sealed the deal for our reputation abroad: they'll think we really are a bunch of globally-ignorant, obese morons, and they'll have good reason to think so - how would a Bush-like person's election in Canada change your perceptions of the Canadians? As a person who considers himself both worldly and healthy, I don't want to have to deal with such a stereotype for the rest of my life whenever I leave the country.

Kevin / November 1, 2004 12:15 PM

What everyone said.

If that fucking chimp wins, then I'll lose all hope in humanity. I say that if Bush wins, we get to build canals around all the red states and hurl feces at the inhabitants.

Please tell me the last four years have just been a bad dream? Please? Someone?

miss ellen / November 1, 2004 12:20 PM

i like kevin's idea ALOT! slinging feces might be the only option....

but, the packers did spank those redskins, let's make it 18 elections & counting!

Joe / November 1, 2004 12:22 PM

No matter who wins, we all lose.

The bureaucracy is out of control.

It does not matter if we are micromanaged by members of the conservative or liberal ruling class.


Pete / November 1, 2004 12:42 PM

It will either restore or destroy my faith in the future of democracy in America.

Tom / November 1, 2004 1:46 PM

Kerry wins...we all lose. He said in debate #2 that he'll increase military size by 45000. Can't do that without a draft. He keeps saying he has a plan for this and a plan for that ...but has he ever told anyone what it is????Nope.....

Tom / November 1, 2004 1:48 PM

Besides, I'm still waiting for all those that promised to leave 4 years ago to pack up and go.

vit / November 1, 2004 1:54 PM

hurling feces may be a bit much, but dumping all the red states seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Benjy / November 1, 2004 1:55 PM

He said in debate #2 that he'll increase military size by 45000. Can't do that without a draft.

Yeah, he could if he didn't send troops into stupid wars without adequate supplies, and if he paid them well enough, offered them the medical coverage and housing promised when they enlisted, etc.

aj / November 1, 2004 2:29 PM

"Besides, I'm still waiting for all those that promised to leave 4 years ago to pack up and go."

Rather indirectly... I am really sick of the "if you don't like it, then leave" mentality. According to this logic, women wouldn't have the vote, slavery would still be legal, and none of us would be able to hoist a beer at happy hour.

robin.. / November 1, 2004 2:41 PM

joe: it certainly _does_ matter if we're "micromanaged by members of the conservative or liberal ruling class." yes, both are rich, white, and male. tomorrow i will vote for a rich white man who really doesn't look or have a history that is all that dissimilar from the other rich white man(unless you count, oh i dunno, military service). but ask any feminist if there is a difference, and i've gotta tell ya, he or she is gonna say that when it comes to reproductive rights--to put the finest possible point on it and at the risk of showing my hand--when it comes to reproductive rights, one rich white man will undermine roe v. wade, whether that means a full-scale attack or nickel-and-diming it into unavailability (no access? no choice!), and the other rich white man (if kerry's "liberal," i'm not entirely sure what i, my family, and all of my friends and co-workers are...) will defend the right of a woman to access a safe, professional, medical abortion against people who object to it on a religious basis. and in spite of what that wingnut allen keyes spouts petulantly off every time someone gives him a mic, camera, or street corner, church and state are and ought to be separate in this non-theocracy.

if bush wins, my compulsion to blow this pop stand is great. hell, i read "atlas shrugged," and maybe the schlubs should just go ahead and make this an idealogically-driven "democracy" based on "feelings" and "image" (for the middle and working classes; for the rich it'll be based on money and power) instead of facts and cause-and-effect without me. then i remember that i freaking love my country and that this country needs people like me. if i leave, then the real terrorists--those hateful, hurtful nu-cons who are motivated by greed and who hide behind "faith" as well as the ones motivated by a crusade mentality that happens to make them rich along the way--will have won. if bush wins, i'munna riot and then i'munna fight. if kerry wins, i'll take a few weeks off to recover from my all-politics-all-the-time life and then fight some more. i wasn't old enough to vote when (parts of) the left got lulled in the clinton years, but i am now.

the rich white male democrat is not the very best. but in a national election that boils down to two candidates versus each other for what might be turning into more of a figurehead position (for example, if kerry has a republican congress, we the dems might not get much done...), i don't see any problem with compromising my fondest hopes to vote against my--and my mother's, father's, granmothers'--growing fears.

Joe / November 1, 2004 5:48 PM

Robin - I agree. Your issue is a subset of a bigger issue - personal rights...no government should have the right to tell you or me or anyone what they can and can't do with themselves.

But that is not what government does. They do tell us what we can and cannot do...who we can marry, what we can and can't do with our bodies, and what is right and what is wrong.

Why? Because the bureacracy is powerful. Either candidate is going to march us around to what his power base wants. If the challenger gets in, the trial lawyers run amuck. If the incumbent gets reelected, we dance to the tune of the social conservatives.

Wouldn't it be better if the government had limited power? Then we could marry who we wanted, and have control over our bodies, rather than having to deal with some arbitrary rules established by the ruling class, and not have to worry about which faction had more power to make up rules.

Awarding men power over you is dangerous. What if that power is seized by others?
Be careful with those 'rich white male democrat' types you support.


waleeta / November 1, 2004 6:13 PM

I'll be in a much better mood for the next four years if Kerry wins, which my friends will appreciate, and my cramps will go away.

Lisa / November 1, 2004 9:48 PM

Being this my first election, either way it ends, I will be sad. I am so sad that my first vote had to decide my president from these two idiots. Could we find no other people that would have been better? I'm just hoping we make it through these next four years, and the next election, I will be proud of my right to vote.

delvan / November 2, 2004 12:31 AM

Lets see two idiots in this election one of them, Kerry I have no idea what he will do. The other one, won't budge from his positions. This is not a choice I want to make but I will vote with my gut - I will vote Bush only because I feel he will be a better provider of safety and security. From an ideaology standpoint I am against both of them. I wish it was someone else other than Kerry.

Lisa / November 2, 2004 3:53 AM

Delvan, I believe you read my mind. Well done. I guess everyone can see how this day unfolds..hmm..

Alex / November 2, 2004 6:05 AM

Well, I can either see how Kerry does and hope he mends the damage left behind by dumb-as-a-stump-lying-thieving-frat boy-war mongering-shit head or I can be completely disillusioned again by the American people who believed his crock of SHIT and were in a daze the last four year.

And, unfortunately my son will grow into his t-shirt which he will be wearing during the next four years.

And for everyone that says they wish it were someone else but Kerry, god, Kerry can't possibly do any worse!

Alex / November 2, 2004 6:06 AM

O.K. the link didn't come out, but his t-shirt reads "Mommy wants a new president"!

amyc / November 2, 2004 7:26 AM

"I will vote Bush only because I feel he will be a better provider of safety and security."

For you. For the 100,000 Iraqis and 1,100 soldiers who died in a needless war, not so much.

paul / November 2, 2004 7:41 AM

Either way, we'll have to listen to half the country blame everything bad that happens on one man for the next four years.

marbles / November 2, 2004 8:17 AM

now i'm no kerry apologist, i certainly agree that the man was incredibly vague and hopefully naive in outlining his foreign policy, but he was against a barreling force of lies and misdeeds out to convince my neighbors and me that we will not survive unless they stay in power. against such a mendacious, pugnacious, repugnant campaign, i cannot fault mr. kerry for adopting the offense that he did (there will be time for that after the results are in).

i do know that mr. kerry has a rather impeccable record when it comes to our environment; i know that he will protect reproductive rights; i know that he has an actual energy plan that doesn't look to pad the pockets of the oil industry; i know that he doesn't want to weaken/abolish social security; and i know he has, perhaps unrealistic, hopes to insure the health of more americans.

i feel kerry has a better sense of what would make this country more secure as well, even if he couldn't make it clear in debates. it is clear that he has ideas, something of which our current president is sadly bereft. that is why i had no problem voting for kerry at 6.00 this morning. now if he wins, cross my fingers, it's our job to hold that man accountable for his every action. i'm hopeful for the near future, because i think there's a greater chance he'll listen.

winterfresh / November 2, 2004 8:24 AM

Alex if Bush is dumb as a stump, how does he have the capacity to be a lying and thieving s.o.b.? Anyway, all of you who want to vote for John Flip Flop Waffle Kerry, then you should move to Canada, or Mexico, or heck over to Europe, pick up your socialist ideals and get the fuck out of here okay! Reason why other countries don't respect us, is because these other countries are jealous of us. America doesn't need sombody who will talk and talk until he thinks he covered up his own mistakes, and then change his mind again later when somebody isn't happy.
Silly brainwashed Chicagoans. Oh, and you really must think that musicians who all there life did drugs, drank and fucked every think in sight, and hardly has a sense of family values, along with actors and actresses who party and divorce everyday, make films about sex and immoral ideas and values are where your ideals lay, then go to the polls with them and vote for that superfical someone. Your all so stupid!

j than / November 2, 2004 8:25 AM

From above:

"If that fucking chimp wins, then I'll lose all hope in humanity. I say that if Bush wins, we get to build canals around all the red states and hurl feces at the inhabitants."

Instead of "red states," try substituting feminists, Jews, Packers fans, Ethiopians, or any other division of people you care to insert. Reread the sentence, and you'll see that it's really just about as ignorant and bigoted a sentence one could write--and remarkably hypocritical.

That said, I'm voting for Kerry, not because I think Republicans are inbred or because I'm intimidated by what some presume to be the perception of people in other countries. I'm voting for Kerry because Bush botched the job and should be fired--it's about accountability.

Kevin / November 2, 2004 8:34 AM

j than - Read My Lips: I was being sarcastic. Sheesh, try some decaf, eh? Save it for the Craiglist rant board.

Ok. Maybe the Packer fans is a good idea...

Kevin / November 2, 2004 8:38 AM

So Winterfresh. How are those Ohio polling places looking this morning? ;)

Tom / November 2, 2004 8:54 AM

Hey AJ.....
I never said love it or leave it. I am just sick and tired of all those people (including those who are posting here) spouting "I'm ready to blow this pop stand....I'm going to Mexico.....I'm leaving for Canada....and the rest" Celebrities are the worse of them all. So I say don't make a threat you don't intend to keep. Besides the ones that threaten to leave generally don't take the time to vote.

shechemist / November 2, 2004 8:56 AM

ManCoon and I have been talking about speeding up our time line for moving out of Chicago (and to a rural southwestern location) if Bush are reelected, even if it means me finishing up my nurse practitioner course work and clinicals in another state once I have my RN. I have a feeling if Bush and his people have 4 more years, nothing will reign them in. they will view the next four years as a blank check to eradicate personal privacy, gut environmental protection, further run up the deficit, and invade Iran. If/When we invade Iran, we are going to be 5 types of fucked. We will have more terrorist attacks on American soil. I don't want to be in a major urban area.

Tom / November 2, 2004 8:58 AM

Well said Winterfresh.........

Go Vote!!!!!! / November 2, 2004 9:09 AM

Yeah, he could if he didn't send troops into stupid wars without adequate supplies, and if he paid them well enough, offered them the medical coverage and housing promised when they enlisted, etc

Oddly enough...the reason they don't have adequate supplies and aren't being paid enough is the person you'll be voting for.

Tom / November 2, 2004 9:09 AM

Geee they blew up trains in Spain right before the election and had an effect on the election outcome there....then just 2 weeks ago blow up another train.... Bush attacks after years of Clinton hand ringing and "we'll see" attitude.... Elect Kerry and we become ball less again.... anyone want some ketchup

Phineas / November 2, 2004 9:10 AM

Well, for one, there will at least be a small pause (I hope) in the semi-hysterical, spittle-flecked, name calling, ad hominem and general partisan madness that's been tainting just about every aspect of our society lately.

Beyond that, I can say that my personal economic indicators have been going down and down every year for the last four. I'm really hoping that a change at the top might help turn that around. My only hope for that under four more years of Bush would be the unexpected inheritance of an oil company.

Mike / November 2, 2004 9:19 AM

Winterfresh -

...you're kidding, right? The fact that you think the entire world must be jealous of us exemplifies the complete and utter arrogance of the entire GOP. You may find this hard to believe, but the rest of the world may not necessarily utilize the "wealth" measuring stick when determining the success and strength of a nation--especially when it's concentrated in the hands of mainly the "elite" few. Bush is a moron who was propped up politically by his powerful family and the rich oil barons (not unlike Damien in The Omen), and maybe a bunch of rednecks who think that guns and kickin' ass is cool. You're the one who is brainwashed, or maybe you're just one of the wealthiest 1%-ers who have profited from this debacle of leadership.

dan / November 2, 2004 9:21 AM

Man, I'm sick of people like Winterfresh here telling me to either join their bandwagon or move to Canada or Mexico.

This is America, assholes. I may not agree with you, I have as much of a right to my beliefs as you do.

robin.. / November 2, 2004 9:29 AM

tom--the threat i intend to keep is the threat to stay and fight, which follows the partial quote you pulled.

cheers, Phineas.

Tom / November 2, 2004 9:47 AM

I am so disappointed to see how many people are actually buying into the scare tactics that the Republicans have employed since the terroist attacks in 2001.

No, everyone else is not out to get us, but if we keep this up, who could blame them if they were? Yes, we must defend ourselves and our national interests, but a preemptive invasion was not justified in this case. (It would also help if our energy policy didn't make Mideast oil one of our national interests.)

Sadly, John Kerry doesn't inspire me the way that I want my president to, but his ideologies are more in line with mine and Bush just plain sucks. So justified was the vote I placed for Kerry this morning.

As for the expatriate-wannabes, here's a newsflash: unless your job is in high demand or you are willing/able to marry in, no other country will have you. Better to be an agent of change here.

winterfresh / November 2, 2004 10:13 AM

Dan, this country was based on Christian morals and values. Freedom of religion, a religion is a belief in God, and what is right to have a country that believes in supporting commandments that dont fail a person. Your views are fine with me, but leave them in your home. I don't want my kid in second grade to be taught that it's okay to be gay! Or to kill a baby that is a few months old. A while back a countries dictator said, we don't have to destroy America, America will destroy itself. Well it looks like we're going in that direction. You want Kerry? Then you want our nation to fall. Say goodbye dumbass!

miss ellen / November 2, 2004 10:18 AM

winterfresh: how about a harsh reality check?

what if, just maybe, some of us DO WANT this fucking sham of a country to fall? what if, some of us believe our country already has fallen, so far down, that it's almost beyond repair.

almost.
beyond.
repair.

4 more years? you say goodbye, dumbass.

Anthony / November 2, 2004 10:23 AM

Kerry at worst will be in ineffective.

Bush at worst could end the world with a "Yeee-haaaa!" He believes in the Rapture, people. The president of the most awesome military in history should NOT believe in the Rapture.

If he wins, I'll be in Costa Rica picking coffee and saying I'm Canadian. Oh wait, that won't matter because I'll probably glow in the dark.

lynn / November 2, 2004 10:37 AM

Winterfresh, I don't think that you, considering the logic (or spelling, or grammar) of your arguments, should be telling us what is appropriate for school. You're incoherent. This is why we smirk at blinded bible-thumpers like you.

I'm sorry...I didn't mean to go for the personal attack, but seriously: this shit's ridiculous. And guess what -- I am leaving the country, to teach. It's not because of one person being elected over another -- it's becuase we are so wrapped up in our own train wreck that we can't even acknowledge the rest of the world. I just need a breather from this place.

Michael / November 2, 2004 10:40 AM

If anyone is still undecided, just read the comments of Winterfresh and the rest of the religious right...if that doesn't scare you to the left, I don't know what will.

winterfresh / November 2, 2004 10:52 AM

You my friends of the American Socialist Party, are all whacked! The reason why you think our country has fallen, is because your so busy relying on others to make you feel good. Democrats do a spendid job at that. Why, they even dish out welfare checks to people so they don't have to work, and raise taxes on small business owners so they can't stay in business. Go and smoke your pot, eat your fast food, you fatasses, and watch the media sensored viewpoints on what they see in America. Did you ever step out of your own freaking box to see what America is. Go travel to the small towns and cities where they are trying to raise a family on religious and moral issues and then go back to your liberal city ideas and realize how much of a loser you are.

Anthony / November 2, 2004 10:56 AM

Winterfresh, seriously man, you need to leave the borders of the United States (for a significant amount of time) to understand why the people on this forum believe what they do. Your views disgust me, and appeal to belligerently ignorant minority from which all of this nationalistic and xenophobic banter is permeating. Donít try legislating your sickeningly hypocritical morality on me. Progress comes from openness, education, communication, hope and cooperation. Not from profiteering, fear, repression, invasion, manipulation and concealment.

Disgusting. Appalling.

-sigh- / November 2, 2004 10:59 AM

Viva la troll.

Anthony / November 2, 2004 11:01 AM

You can be liberal and still believe in self determination. My god...

dan / November 2, 2004 11:04 AM

Man, thank you so much Winterfresh.

It's so good to have a fuckin' nutcase espousing radically intolerant, ill-informed fanaticism. That way the rest of us, who are tolerant of each others views, beliefs, backgrounds etc., can see the dangers of letting someone like yourself in the White House.

Maggie / November 2, 2004 11:05 AM

"Your all so stupid."

Um, farbeit from me to judge someone on improper grammar...

Colin Harris / November 2, 2004 11:32 AM

Hey guys just my 2 cents....theres a real importent reason you guys should vote for Bush. He stands for the moral fabric for our society! Seriously do you really wnat a gay teacher for your little kid! No I didnt think so!

just kidding......

Anyone sense a pattern here? Grammar, spelling....i love the "omg all yuo hippies are gonna burn in hell you know the baby jesus cries when yuo vote for kerry yor sons gonna be gay too" posts....way to help your cause...
Reading Is Fundamental, people....

winterfresh / November 2, 2004 11:34 AM

And which border Anthony do you wish me to enter. I'd rather worry about what is going on in America, and then venture out to other countries. I know how poor other countries are, you nut. Our govt' is greedy on both sides, but this is our country, where we are suppose to be working hard, raising families, going to church, and joining orginizations that bring communities together. When the govt' starts to interfere because they don't think we know how to be Americans, and start puting a band aid on how to fix problems that we can do ourselves, but they offer because we're lazy and we let them. That's how problems begin, letting other people fix our problems. You got a brain, obviously from all those empowering words you use. Figure that out. Nobody gets a free ride here.

robin.. / November 2, 2004 11:39 AM

me too, maggie; it seems we'll fuck "every think in sight," though, so maybe their right: you and i am wrong about there way's.

dan / November 2, 2004 11:51 AM

Ohhh, man. I have to admit I love this stuff. Winterfresh, please keep it coming.

Seriously, everytime you get one of these ill-informed, (and, I'm guessing from the spelling, uneducated) zealots spouting their doctrine, it's like a field day.

Like Jerry Falwell saying that the gay agenda caused 9/11. Or Trent Lott saying segregation was a good idea. Or Alan Keyes saying Jesus, if he was alive today, would carry a handgun.

It's simultaneously horrific and hilarious.

So, yes, Winterfresh, please, please, PLEASE keep posting. You're just proving our point.

Anarchist / November 2, 2004 11:51 AM

People....people! Get a grip....


waleeta - is Bush really causing your cramps?

Alex - go easy on the hatred. I hope you set
a better example for your kid.

Thurston - "With no hyperbole, I can say
that almost everyone in the entire world
thinks Bush is an idiot" - Classic!

Kevin - flinging feces?

Miss ellen - is this country 'almost beyond
repair'? This country has more wealth and
freedom than any other. If the US were to
fall beyond repair, what would happen to the
rest of the world?

"Mommy wants a new president" - Yes, that's
the great thing about kids...you can raise
them to hate the same things you do.

Aren't we supposed to tolerate others? Or
only those people we agree with?

Is anyone going to leave this country because
of *ONE FREAKING* elected official? There's
this thing called 'checks-and-balances' The
Prez is NOT a dictator...there is still Congress,
the courts, the states, the city, Da mayor, etc.

Log off the internet and go to the park!


Anthony / November 2, 2004 11:57 AM

See, that's the thing. What is best for America is what is best for the world. We're all on this little planet together. In order to understand the world, you have to go experience other parts of it.

Regarding your comment on civics and liberty, the Bush administration has a solid record of systematically attacking our freedoms (and I hesitate to use that world because it almost has no meaning). I agree, government shouldn't be in our lives at all (gay marriage). Freedom, in my head, is the ability to make of your life what you want. That's pretty hard with a low minimum wage, high unemployment, poor education, abyssal foreign policy, and American jobs moving oversees.

If we want to start empowering people, we have to change our priorities (at home and abroad) from buying guns to buying books and blankets. We'll always need a strong military, I'm not advocating pacifisms, but more a change in the national (and international) agenda. Innovation comes from empowerment, not subjugation.

Kevin / November 2, 2004 12:21 PM

Well Anarchist, I typed my comment while in the park flinging feces. Call it my WiFi-Poo-Fly.

Thanks for the Barnaby Jones wrap-up. Buddy Ebsen would be proud.

Alex / November 2, 2004 12:23 PM

Anarchist:

Alex - go easy on the hatred. I hope you set a better example for your kid.

Hate is not a word I believe in -- neither is war, nor lying nor cheating. So yes, that's why I call Bush a war mongoring shithead.

As far as examples go, I may not agree with everything everyone says, but I will fight to the death their right to say it. That's what makes this country great. We can agree to disagree without getting shot over it.

So before you go questioning my parenting skills, get the story straight.

Anarchist / November 2, 2004 12:27 PM


>"Hate is not a word I believe in -- neither >is war, nor lying nor cheating. So yes, >that's why I call Bush a war mongoring >shithead. "

Ooops...sorry, Alex. I was mistaken.
My apologies.

robin.. / November 2, 2004 12:36 PM

apropos of it all, has anyone found, on the internet, a source of exit polls or numbers thus far for today's hoo-hah? it's 1:30 already in three big swing states (OH, PA, FL) and i can't find any numbers. must...feed...head with...polling data.....information shortage...becoming...critical.....

Nothing / November 2, 2004 12:41 PM

apparently anarchist hasn't gone to the park like he's told all of us to do. . .

seriously though, this is really sad, all of it, all of us, humanity, there really is no true love or acceptance if you think about it, only a will to power, the primal struggle to subject others to our will (which in itself is merely a struggle of wills within us).

is it really hypocrisy or is it inherent in humankind's nature to be a contradiction? a question of identity? what we choose to see in others, but not in oursleves?

makes one hopeless, almost.


Alex / November 2, 2004 12:44 PM

robin..:

"hoo-hah"

I love that word!

winterfresh / November 2, 2004 1:04 PM

Anthony -

In regards to your comment on education. It's not the responsibility of teachers to babysit, rather, it's to educate. Unfortunately children come into the classroom not wanting to be educated, and they either are coming from bad parenting, or just don't give a shit.

The teachers in our schools go through the same liberal education you went through, I'm sure. They can spell and have great grammar, so why is the education system failing? It's because the Govt' gives out freebees so people don't have to know about values, or that they can make it, if they just get up off their asses. Sorry my grammar is not up to your par, it doesn't mean when I was going to school it was the teachers fault. I had a class full of honor students. My personal faults are none other than my own problems.

Families that are broken, it doesn't happen overnight. Bad families comes from generations spiraling down to a level where they are dependent because they don't know any better, and there never was any guidance by sucessful people. Further they think that whatever media, pop culture, and people that make shallow promises offers across their tv screens, then that is what they should take.

Why do people from a third world country come here? It's for jobs, they live in a apartment, with 12 others, make minimum wage, bust their ass, and try to make a better life for themselves. It would be great to see Americans learn from these people. Hey, some have to start from the bottom, but if they try hard enough, don't give up, have a good support system from their FAMILY, then they will soon be on the road to success. Nothing comes easy.

People who have made it, they have to save, and work still for what they have, and that's the daily struggle, that's life! Freedom is something that we work for every day. Other countries, are ordered around by a dictator, where the freedom to do anything is not there. You want to go there and see this? Go, stay, become one of them. Americans should know they are living in the best nation, a land of opportunity. Give more control to a Govt' power, and that slowly will be taken away. Democrats, don't want you to think for yourselves, they want to do it for you. You may be blind by the hatred you have for me, republicans, or people with values, but I assure you, they keep this countries fabric in place.

I voted / November 2, 2004 1:18 PM

cripes, winterfresh-

if your kid has a gay teacher, they're not going to teach your kid to be gay. Who the heck cares if they're gay or not? If they're a good teacher, that's what should matter. And you're talking about religious and moral beliefs, isn't one of the things about religion to accept everyone? Isn't that what makes god happy? Well, well, look at you bashing gay people. Fancy of you.

As far as killing "babies" I hope that you are also against in-vitro because they only choose the best of the best to put in the woman. what do they do with the rest? hmmm. I hope that you can at least understand how and why abortion is necessary in extreme cases (incest, rape). If not, that is scary. And if you want to reduce the number of abortions, teach about protection. Abstinence is teaching ignorance. Kids are going to have sex and if they don't know how to protect themselves, they'll end up with a kid and possibly having an abortion. While I'm on it, if abortion ever does become illegal, women will have to resort to using coat hangers again.

Also, I was raised in small towns and guess what? they're not all that innocent. Some of the most church going people were also the ones having affairs. So much for the small town theory.

dan / November 2, 2004 1:21 PM

Oooo... yeah. That's the stuff!

Michael / November 2, 2004 1:24 PM

Winterfresh -

Although you make SOME sense this time around, you have bought into the Republican propaganda that Democrats stand for Big Government and Republicans do not, which is unadulterated crap. "Big Government" has never before reached the heights that it has under the current administration, and not in a long while have individual freedoms been suppressed to the extent that they have now, through racial profiling, voter intimidation and disenfranchising, and at times, tactics bordering on outright censorship. The Department of Homeland Security has ballooned into one of the biggest bureaucracies in our nation's history. Why? So can they can dispense such pearls of wisdom as "stock up on duct tape in the case of biological attack" and give us a really pretty color-coded terror alert system? I don't know about the rest of you, but I feel much safer, thank you. And anyone who thinks that it's o.k. to suppress individual rights in the name of national security, would be wise to heed the words of Benjamin Franklin:

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security.

salty / November 2, 2004 1:32 PM

I'm going to weasel out of the president elect question, since all I can do now is cover my ears and go "la la la" until the results are in. Otherwise I'll go INSANE.

Anyway, I can't say how proud I'll be to have Barack Obama as my Senator. I mean, to be able to have someone who I think will really represent me in D.C. is just amazing.

That's my little bit of hope in all of this.

Pat / November 2, 2004 1:38 PM

ideological issues aside, which there are plenty as has been espoused in the preceding comments, I'd have to say the biggest reason to vote for Kerry is to ensure checks and balances.

Currently all three branches of the federal government are controlled by one party. Doesn't this seem like a bad idea? Without the need to comprimise - why bother creating an agenda that has broad appeals, when it can easilly be rubberstamped by compatriots on other sides of the equation?

During the next presidential term, the Supreme Court will be freeing up a few new seats. We've already seen W pushing far right idealogues for the Federal Bench - so what's to stop him from tampering with the delicate balance the Supreme's have barely maintained in recent history?

Doesn't anyone remember that Junior High Constitution test? Checks and Balances people!!!

steven / November 2, 2004 2:24 PM

i just get the feeling that kerry wants this more than bush does. and though i know appearances can deceive, kerry just appears more business-like, more professional. hopefully, after kerry is elected, the country will feel more at ease with who is leading us into the future. at least it won't be bush. i hope.

Winterfresh / November 2, 2004 2:54 PM

Big goverment, just like anything that goes on in this world does not happen over night. In four years of G.W. Bush, all of a sudden there is more big brother around? Govt' controll is not a republican nor a democratic thing, it's the power of politicians trying to make money for themselves. Kerry is not a good presidential candidate, he does not have a plan, and if he comes in with no plan, where are we going to go with him as our leader for the next four years? Jobs will still go overseas, and will continue to go there. We are slowly turning into a service oriented country. Kerry won't stop that!

I'm not against gay teachers teaching my kids, I'm against homosexuality being taught to my kids in school. I don't think being gay is genetic. Huh, genetic, whatever! Gay is a preference. But anyway, it shouldn't be taught, and there shouldn't be a civil union. A sexual preference is not a union.

What individual rights and freedoms are you giving up, through this current president? If more Americans knew more about our country then more would vote! The reality, lets face it, many adults and young people couldn't tell you shit about the gov't, or it's history. Families that stay together, and communicate what goes on in the world each day, is what this country is losing. That is what is being given up, and the Govt' is not bringing this on. Our morals, and the fabric of community is slipping so far, and it's done in some parts to pacification of media, and where and what we base our lives around.

I like Bush, he fucked up just like all of us, but he admits to it. I don't know, I'm tired of this arguing. Thank goodness it's just a workday, and I'm not home fighting ideals with somebody in my family, or with a friend. Everyone can have their own opinion, this one is mine.

miss ellen / November 2, 2004 3:20 PM

i'm sorry, Winterfresh, but who are you kidding but yourself?

when does bush admit to fucking up? oh, just cuz he was born-again?

he CERTAINLY has NOT admitted to any one mistake from the past 4 years; not letting Osama slip away, not invading Iraq, not trying to attempt his last campaign slogan of being a uniter, not a divider.

i mean, this thread right here, just goes to show what 4 years have brought upon us.

bitterness.
hatred.
lies.
half-truths.

4 more years?

dan / November 2, 2004 3:22 PM

"I like Bush, he fucked up just like all of us, but he admits to it."

When did I miss this? Dude, he's NEVER admitted to fucking up. EVER! Did you watch the debates? Have you seen the interviews? He's fucks up on a regular basis, and never ever admits to it. This is why people hate him. And it just goes to show how goddamn ignorant you are on this issue, winterfresh.

As far as your comment>>
"Everyone can have their own opinion, this one is mine."

that sounds awfully diplomatic for someone also posting >>

"Go and smoke your pot, eat your fast food, you fatasses, and watch the media sensored viewpoints on what they see in America."

Get the fuck over yourself, you vindictive twit.

tiny tim / November 2, 2004 3:29 PM

God bless us...everyone!!

I voted / November 2, 2004 3:32 PM

Winterfresh-

Did you make the conscious choice to be straight? I didn't. It's just who I am. Therefore, I doubt that any gay person chose to be gay. Simple as that. You didn't choose to be heterosexual, gay people don't choose to be homosexual.
Also, what schools are you talking about where they teach kids how to be gay? I think they're teaching acceptance, which should be taught. Would you rather they teach how to gay-bash? Kids are picked on in school and if it's a gay kid getting picked on, then yes, acceptance should be taught. They don't deserve to be treated any differently.

We're all people. We all deserve the same rights and respect. It's a human right.

Do you remember hearing about how women didn't have the right to vote or black people or when interracial marriage was illegal? People didn't want to accept or make those changes, but they happened and ya know, the world really isn't all that bad because of that. Two people of the same sex getting married or having a civil union isn't going to have a big impact on your life.

Wendy / November 2, 2004 3:36 PM

How the hell did Winterfresh get in here anyway? Did someone leave a Chick Tract open?

patrick / November 2, 2004 3:41 PM

I blame Bush for everything! Just yesterday he ate my leftovers in my fridge, beat up some dork kid in the 5th grade for his milk money, raped a gorilla, caused the continuation of hunger in Africa, melted the polar ice caps, killed 12 species of rare fish, slapped my grandmother on the ass and pissed off the French once again by staying married to Laura who shaves her pits.

Man, Bush causes everything and Kerry will fulfill our American Dream of no responsibility, where we will live in a subsidized house eating government issued cheese, all the while knowing we are being kept safe from danger by a government health plan. Vote Kerry!

dan / November 2, 2004 3:53 PM

I will agree with W.interfresh on this>>

Homosexuality is a choice. A deliciously decadent, luxuriously sinful choice.

Kind of like a Dove bar with almonds.

robin.. / November 2, 2004 3:59 PM

i love almonds.

miss ellen / November 2, 2004 4:05 PM

mmmmmm, government issued cheese

patrick / November 2, 2004 4:11 PM

To miss ellen,

First of all not getting Bin Laden was a failure not a mistake. I support Bush because Kerry can't make a decision. Letís remember that Bin Laden is responsible for 3000 deaths in this country while Hussein is responsible, in conservative estimates for the deaths of 100 times that number. For some reason it was ok to go into Afghanistan but stupid to go into Iraq? We should have started with Hussein!

By the way, Al Gore and Bill Clinton both have said that Hussein was an imminent threat, Gore promised to do something about Hussein if he was elected. Clinton patrolled Iraq and used it as a diversion when he was caught fooling around with Lewinsky, shooting off missiles whenever he needed it.

Bush should admit to his mistakes, but atleast he has the balls to make a decision.

Anthony / November 2, 2004 4:15 PM

I don't see how voting for Kerry will bring about the end of the American family. The American family has been in decay for decades, and whoever gets elected isn't going to make any kind of impact in any way.

I'd much rather live in a society of gay-divorcees than some kind of pre-Betty Friedan neo-con repressive hell. At least we wouldn't take ourselves too seriously.

Winterfresh, you need to understand privilege, my friend. Some people just have more opportunity because of where and how they start.

I find the right to FAR more immoral (if we must use these words) then the left. Nobody died when Bill lied. And I think anybody on this forum that is voting emotionally (right or left) should take their heads out of there...

Andy / November 2, 2004 4:15 PM

Kerry should not be president because his phlegmatic, morose style doesn't serve caricaturists well. G Dub will keep the late night comedy shows going, I believe.

patrick / November 2, 2004 4:20 PM

Actually Anthony people did die when Bill lied. Ask the Iraqi people when he dropped bombs for his diversions.

Look, can't this country atleast agree that Kerry and Bush are idiots. I think it would best serve the American people if they both were elected and made decisions based on thumb wars.

unbelievable / November 2, 2004 4:23 PM

Dan -

That is possibly one of the most ignorant statements I have ever read.

Are you gay? I'm assuming not... so how are you even in a place to make that call?

Also, do you understand that nothing about being gay is easy. I promise you that if someone wanted to take the easy way out there is no way in hell they would choose to be gay.

It's hella hard being gay and it makes it even more difficult when one has to put up with such ignorance is yours. I understand being ignorant on the subject, but being outspoken when one does not have any idea is just plain hurtful.

patrick / November 2, 2004 4:27 PM

Being gay is not easy. True.
Being a straight white male is not easy. True
Being a woman is not easy. True
Being a minority is not easy. True

patrick / November 2, 2004 4:28 PM

Life, period, is hard.

unbelievable / November 2, 2004 4:29 PM

oh lord.

systematically, being a white male is about as easy as it gets.

I voted / November 2, 2004 4:30 PM

Yes, bin laden killed 3,000 Americans, but let's not forget the over 100,000 Iraqis we have killed. bin laden should have been our number one goal and we blew it. Please tell me how someone who is 6'6", super sick (that means medicine is being delivered to him somehow or he's out and about, which is why I point out how tall he is. doesn't he stand out in a crowd?), and making tapes can't be caught. We need better intelligence, or we need to be more focused on getting him. I find it amazing that he hasn't been caught. I think we're too focused on Iraq and if the Bush administration keeps mentioning "terrorism" and "Iraq" in the same sentence, there are enough ignorant people out there who will think that Iraq had everything to do with Sept 11. bin laden hurt us, we should have gotten him before we got Hussein. I bet if Gore had been in office when we were attacked, he would have focused on bin laden instead of Hussein.

The reason Afghanistan was more acceptable to go into was because the person who hurt us was living there. Had Bush been straight with us about why he was going into Iraq, too, then it might have been ok, but the guy gave us a million different reasons, none of which panned out. Again, bin laden should have been our number one person to catch and now we look like fools because we haven't found him.

Kerry isn't my favorite choice, but I'd rather have him in office than Bush. Also, Kerry doesn't want to go back to 1950 and the return of group maternity homes.

dan / November 2, 2004 4:31 PM

Whoa, unbelievable>>

I was cracking wise. I know being gay is not easy. Truth be told, I do believe homosexuality is genetic, and I realize that is damn tough being gay.

But I was reacting to Winterfresh's obvious intolerance by comparing homosexuality to delicious Dove bar (which is filled with chocolate-y ice cream goodness.)

It was a joke. I am sorry if I offended you.

Mary Cheney / November 2, 2004 4:40 PM

My dad's the biggest conservative to ever walk the earth, and yet, I CHOSE to be gay. I thought it would be cute, you know?

patrick / November 2, 2004 4:44 PM

Group maternity homes?

100,000 dead is an estimate put out by groups that have never been to Iraq, most people admit that it is impossible to determine the number. The majority of those numbers, even if they are correct are Hussein's own army and the terrorists who continue to cut peoples heads off. Oh wait there are no terrorists in Iraq, sorry U.S. media, sorry I voted.

Bin Laden did not appear sick in the video. Of course he isnt going to be walking around with a sign saying hey im over here. We continue to hunt down Bin Laden and instead of a bombing before the election we got a videotape. Which would you rather have.

Also, Gore had a chance for 8 years in office to get Bin Laden. Clinton was approached on several occasions if he wanted Bin Laden. Clinton turned it down and we all know what happened.

Also, Gore would have continued our International Indecision just as Clinton perfected it by not going after the terrorists after the USS Cole or the Embassy bombings. We should wait for the terrorists to turn themselves in apparently.

Kris / November 2, 2004 4:52 PM

unbelievable: why would you assume dan's not gay? not that I'm assuming he is. He made no indication either way. He was clearly making a perfectly apt Homer Simpson-esque statement about Dove bars. Mmmm.... Dove bars.

winterfresh: none of my schools taught homosexuality. Nor were any of my teachers gay (that I know of). And yet, I am. Fancy that.

(this = not a conversation I expected to have today)

I voted / November 2, 2004 4:54 PM

you really think that all the bombs we have dropped in neighborhoods haven't killed at least tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis? Do you think the only people who live there are the terrorists? Innocent people have died because of our troops. And no, I don't think that bin laden is going to walk around with a sign, but really, he's a big guy and we can't seem to find him. Just because you're sick doesn't mean that you look sick.
ps: Just because I don't agree with being in Iraq doesn't mean that I don't support the troops. I am very thankful for them.

and yes, group maternity homes. He mentioned them in I think the second debate. Apparently it has something to do with reducing the number of abortions because then women will have a place to go. Something stupid like that.

kate / November 2, 2004 4:58 PM

if bush wins i honestly don't know what i'm going to do. i can't even imagine it. i think i will die of a broken heart.

though i've always been a big believer in revolutions. bush winning will just get us there faster.

Gordon / November 2, 2004 5:37 PM

Voting for Bush because he'll make America feel safe and secure is like staying with your abusive husband because he makes you feel safe and secure.

Okay, bad analogy. But it's true.

patrick / November 2, 2004 5:47 PM

thats the worst analogy ive ever heard

patrick / November 2, 2004 5:48 PM

is this a DNC sponsored website?

miss ellen / November 2, 2004 6:04 PM

Do we live in a Blue State?

patrick / November 2, 2004 6:09 PM

We live in a red state with a huge blue city in it!

susan / November 2, 2004 6:12 PM

I'm a graduate student in biomedical research, so I can say that the outcome of this election will have a profound effect on my career. I'm not just talking about the stem cell debate, or the travesty that is the President's Council on Bioethics (though I can--all day, if you want); funding for biomedical research has been absolutely slashed under this administration. It's become increasingly difficult to get even the best projects funded.

Also (not that I wish to feed trolls) but you might want to check that whole "this country was based on Christian morals and values" bit out; many of the founding fathers (Jefferson, Madison, and Adams, for example) were deists, and none practiced the sort of fundamentalist Christianity usually espoused by people who go on and on about our rich history of Christian values and all that.

Anthony / November 2, 2004 6:30 PM

I agree with Gordon. The Bush administration is the platform of fear.

I heard a woman in Wyoming on the radio this morning talking about how she didn't want her school to get taken over by terrorists like that school in Russia.

Reality check, people, geez! More people die in gun related crimes than will ever die of terrorism (with the proper pre-caution). Why don't we focus on gun control? What about automobile safety?

Terrorism is the new Red Scare. If you're not our side, you're with the terrorists.

Welcome back, Senator McCarthy.

Cold War = War on Terror
Weapons of Mass Destruction = Missile Gap

Terrorism is the new boogie man. War is peace.

George Washington / November 2, 2004 6:49 PM

I'm leaving work now...I would like to say thank you to every person who submitted a post today. The haggling back and forth makes me proud to live in this country. The fact that we can go back and forth on issues and point fingers at each other for the misfortunes of our country makes me think that our freedom is as strong as ever.

My goal of the election? Voter turnout...period. If there is a high voter turnout then the rest will take care of itself.

With regards.

bran / November 2, 2004 7:34 PM

Winterfresh

Jesus was the champion of the opressed people. He taught the acceptance of all races and creeds and he did so without qualification. His teachings even embraced (gasp!) the Semaritans - who, in common opinion at the time, were as low as you could go. What about "love your brother as you love me?" What about his prayer on the mountain top - known to many as the Beatitudes? He blessed just about everybody on the planet and promised them a reward in this life and the next.

Your views on Christanity are an affront to God. And your views on politics and open-mindedness are an affront to the men and women who fought to free this country from oppression. And let me bring you up to speed here on the American Revolution: we were taught in grade school the idyllic notion that we fought for religious freedom. History shows us that it was a class and economic war. The Magna Carta - a defining document that predates the Declaration of Independence - was a protest of brutual British taxation on all classes of colonial American Society. And how could you forget the opening of the Declaration of Independence? "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL."

Do you think you know something about God or the principals this country were founded on? Read your effing Bible and read the effing documents that this country was founded on. Then tell me how to vote. Asshole.

chris / November 2, 2004 9:29 PM

We are all DOOMED..DOOOOMED..either way we are SCREWED!

robin.. / November 2, 2004 9:48 PM

oh my my...is anyone watching keyes' "concession" speech? woah, i am gonna miss this guy...

shechemist / November 2, 2004 11:08 PM

I missed keyes speech cuz I was watching the daily show.

any highlights?

FL is being called for Bush.

but hey, M. Bean kicked Crane to the curb.

Peter Eriksson / November 3, 2004 2:26 AM

This whole election has clarified just how bankrupt the Democrats have become. I want to feel strongly about something, but the truth is that I can only feel strongly negative toward Bush, not particularly strongly at all for Kerry. As a result, this election has changed my life by making me want better vision for the future but with less cultural restraint which is what the GOP keeps pounding down our throats.

Gordon / November 3, 2004 2:45 AM

Patrick, that "Clinton let Bin Laden slip away" rap is tired and wrong: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1558918.stm

Teddy / November 3, 2004 8:26 AM

So when is the big moving day for all of you to move to foreign countries. Fare well, and have a safe trip. Would you all of you please post your condos and apartments on Craigslist? I would appreciate it, I am looking to find a new place so you absence will greatly be appreciated!

Winterfresh / November 3, 2004 8:52 AM

Dumb people are on this site. Everytime I say something, you spin it around. First I said, they shouldn't teach homosexuality in schools to my children. Jesus, yes accepted all creeds, no problem, but I'm sure if Jesus was the principal of a school back then, he wouldn't want them to teach that kind of crap. It goes against the commandment, read that in the the bible. Duh!

DId you see that most of America, except for the cities are for the right choice? Yes they were all red, Bush country.

Bush knows America, but for those who feed off of the Govt' catering in the big cities of the US, then yeah Kerry is your man. It suits you too, evidently you flip flop shit all the time. Example, when I say something, you take it out of context and make it a totally different thing! How whacked are you people?

Tom / November 3, 2004 9:09 AM

Gordon:
it is true that Clinton had several chances to act against Bin Laden. USS Cole, an embassy, marine barracks, the 1st World Trade bombing...He past on each of these and more....then he bombed Bosnia, did they attack us???? I must have missed that. I must have beeen getting head...

But he did cut military spending to the point of our soldiers having bullshit for equipment and freeezing their wages. Save an owl .... kill a soldier. Why can't they be equally important?

No matter who is president we will still be hated in many circles around the world. Extremists will still blame us for the hundreds of years they have been at war with each other. Terrorists will still kill children and civilians with car bombs and suicide bombers.

How is this the fault of the US or our leaders? Extremists are killing in Thailand, Korea, Isreal, Moscow, to name a few. Again I ask, exactly how is that any of our fault? Because we don't give them money? Because we haven't made their lives better? Kerry stands no better chance at ending terrorism than Bush does. His plan is to use the "ignore it and it will go away" mentality. Clinton did it for 8 years. The reason we were spared terrorist attacks on our soil for so long was fear that we would retaliate. That fear eroded during the Clinton years.

Bush attacked head on. Right or wrong, at least he did something aside from hand wringing and hiding.


robin.. / November 3, 2004 1:21 PM

winterfresh, which commandment says "thou shall not teach about things that are different than thou"? i don't think it's the killing one, or the mom & dad one, or the "no other gods but me" one, or the screwing around one, or the sabbath one, or the graven image one, or the name in vain one, or the theft one, or the false witness one, or the "no coveting" one.

just checking.

I voted / November 3, 2004 3:41 PM

Good point, Robin

Winterfresh-

First I said, they shouldn't teach homosexuality in schools to my children.

How is homosexuality taught? were you ever taught how to be gay? Please, I need an example. They don't teach homosexuality in school. They teach acceptance. I don't understand where you're getting homosexuality is taught.

Again, straight people didn't choose to be straight and gay people didn't choose to be gay. If it really was a choice, do you really thing gay people would choose to be gay?

Homosexuality has been around since before the bible was written. Don't you kind of think that the people who wrote the bible saw this going on, it was different to them, they decided they didn't like it and decided to say it was wrong and call it the word of god? Ok, so you probably don't. Anyway, it would be really great if you just accepted people for who they are. Gay people aren't bad. They're people, just like you and just like me.

And I repeat- homosexuality is not taught. I had one gay teacher in grade school and she never talked about it, nor did she teach us how to be gay. Being who you are isn't taught.

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